Searching for the best agency to help your SaaS thrive in Germany? This curated list showcases 15+ top digital marketing agencies in Berlin and across Germany, handpicked for their SaaS focus, proven results, and deep understanding of the local tech ecosystem. Whether you’re after SEO, content-led growth, performance marketing, or PR, this guide helps you find the perfect partner. Leading the way is SaaStorm — a remote-first, B2B SaaS growth agency with roots in Europe and a track record of building inbound engines for brands like emlen, Dealfront, and Reditus. If you’re aiming for scalable growth in Germany or beyond, this list is your launchpad.
Berlin has emerged as a vibrant hub for SaaS startups, bustling with innovators, accelerators, and investors eager to support groundbreaking software solutions.
Yet even the most innovative SaaS product needs effective marketing to scale successfully.
That’s where specialized marketing agencies in Berlin step in.
These agencies provide crucial expertise across various growth channels — SEO, content marketing, PPC, influencer marketing, Webflow website design, demand generation, and more — to help SaaS companies accelerate growth in local and international markets.
In this roundup, we’ve curated a carefully vetted list of the top digital marketing agencies in Berlin and beyond, each selected based on their proven SaaS expertise, demonstrable track records, breadth of relevant digital marketing services, and consistent ability to deliver measurable results.
Pro tip! Even the most innovative SaaS needs tailored SEO content to convert search traffic into qualified leads — it’s not just about ranking, it’s about revenue.
While many featured agencies have offices in Berlin, recognizing the city’s status as a leading tech hub, some outstanding agencies in our selection operate from other innovation hotspots throughout Germany, including Munich, Frankfurt, and Hamburg, each bringing unique regional insights and specializations.
Whether you’re based in Berlin or elsewhere in Germany, this guide will help you find the best digital marketing agency in Germany to drive meaningful growth for your SaaS business.
Let’s dive in!
Top marketing agencies in Germany for SaaS startups in 2025
To simplify your search for the right partner, we’ve profiled standout digital agencies in Berlin and broader Germany, each carefully selected for their SaaS-specific approach.
1. SaaStorm
SaaStorm operates as a fully remote B2B SaaS marketing agency with deep European roots (offices in London and Utrecht), specifically engineered to help B2B SaaS startups like yours. We achieve this through meticulously crafted SEO and content-led strategies designed not just for traffic, but for measurable pipeline impact — delivered efficiently.
We have a strong track record right here in the German market, successfully scaling the inbound marketing engines for notable SaaS companies. You might recognize some of our partners, like emlen, a Berlin-based B2B SaaS platform, or Dealfront (HQ in Karlsruhe), a major Go-To-Market intelligence provider. Our strategic SEO and content initiatives, for instance, played a key role in boosting Dealfront’s organic growth.
Our core strength is turning your website into a powerful growth engine. We focus on:
- Crafting targeted content mapped to your ICP’s needs across their entire buying journey.
- Optimizing your site’s technical health and boosting its credibility and authority online.
- Offering web development services for building/refining sites with content engineered to convert.
As our client Marc Grewenig (Co-founder, emlen) confirms:
“SaaStorm completely transformed our Webflow site. We went from a simple landing page to a fully structured, SEO-ready website with dedicated pages for use cases, product details, and a blog. Now, we’re set up for both search engines and clients alike.”
Our impact extends across the European SaaS landscape:
- Lingio (Sweden-based employee training platform): Boosted organic traffic by 500 % and generated 11× more MQLs in just 9 months.
- Reditus (Netherlands-based B2B SaaS affiliate network): Built a $1.3 M ARR pipeline and accelerated inbound pipeline growth 128 % within the first year.
- Oneup Sales (UK-based performance management platform): Drove £250 K+ in inbound revenue and lifted blog clicks 711 % YoY, amassing 3.11 M+ organic impressions.
Pricing overview: Before any long‑term commitment, we run a focused 10‑day Discovery sprint for €3,000. You get several useful insights like competitor gap analysis, organic growth opportunities, a content plan with 20+ topics, and much more. Everything is yours to keep, even if you don’t continue.
Our ongoing packages start from the Breeze plan at €4,000 per month, which establishes your SEO foundation and four strategy‑driven articles, with higher‑tier options ready as you scale.
Bottom line: If you’re serious about scaling your SaaS in Germany, the wider DACH region, anywhere in Europe, or the U.S, SaaStorm has the people, the processes, and the proof to deliver predictable pipeline growth.
Book your discovery call today!
2. Flow Agency
Flow Agency (formerly Flow SEO) is a boutique search engine optimization (SEO) and content marketing agency headquartered in Berlin and built for B2B SaaS growth. Founded in 2018 by renowned SEO expert Viola Eva, Flow has a team of distributed specialists but a strong Berlin presence. They help SaaS startups build and scale online visibility through a holistic search strategy. Flow is known for technical SEO prowess, content strategy (topic clusters, keyword research), and authoritative link building — essentially providing all the ingredients for sustainable inbound growth. The agency often emphasizes education and transparency, ensuring clients understand the why behind SEO results.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2018
- Notable SaaS clients: Betterworks (enterprise HR SaaS for performance management), MailCharts (email marketing SaaS), Hotjar (UX analytics SaaS)
- Pricing overview: Flow offers tailored monthly SEO programs. They typically engage on retainer (projects often start at a few thousand euros per month). While specific rates are not public, they have noted working with budgets from €1K up to €10K+ per month, depending on scope. They provide a discovery call to customize a plan that fits the startup’s stage and goals.
- Website
3. Cheetah Conversions
Cheetah Conversions is a full-service digital marketing agency in Berlin (with London roots) known for its agile, performance-led approach. Cheetah specializes in PPC (Google, LinkedIn), conversion rate optimization (CRO), and SEO for B2B SaaS and fintech brands. A big value-add is their understanding of different target markets like DACH vs. UK vs. US, making them adept at multi-country campaigns.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2018
- Notable SaaS clients: Sherpany (enterprise meeting management SaaS), Shopware (e-commerce SaaS platform), Kolleno (fintech SaaS)
- Pricing overview: As per Clutch data, their minimum project engagement is around $1,000+, and hourly rates range roughly $50–$100.
- Website
Want to boost MQLs and reduce CAC? Let’s talk!
Schedule a Call4. uberSEM
uberSEM is a Berlin-based growth marketing agency that specializes in performance-driven campaigns for SaaS and tech companies. They handle SEO, SEM/PPC, CRO, and analytics, often acting as an outsourced growth team for startups. If your SaaS needs help optimizing Google Ads or improving conversion funnels. They emphasize measurement and eliminating guesswork — their motto is “We measure, we optimize, you enjoy” with claims of 300%+ revenue increases for clients. Overall, for SaaS startups looking for a nimble digital agency in Berlin to fine-tune their paid acquisition and analytics, uberSEM is a solid pick.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2016
- Notable SaaS clients: (Not publicly disclosed.) uberSEM has reportedly worked with B2B software firms in fintech and marketplace domains (based on testimonials), but client names are kept confidential.
- Pricing overview: They typically require a modest starting budget — directories note a €1,000+ minimum project size. They often charge hourly rates in the €150/hour range for senior experts. For ongoing engagements, expect customized monthly fees depending on ad spend and scope (e.g., PPC management plus CRO might bundle into a retainer).
- Website
5. Grow-SaaS.com
Grow-SaaS.com is a specialized B2B SaaS marketing agency dedicated to scaling SaaS and IT companies in the DACH region. They brand themselves as the one-stop partner to expand your SaaS business in Europe. Grow-SaaS.com provides a full stack of services: performance marketing (Google, LinkedIn ads), content marketing, and SEO for long-term lead gen, conversion rate optimization to turn trials into paid users, and even retention marketing for upsells. While based just outside Hamburg, their passionate team speaks both German and English, often helping international SaaS startups localize and grow in German markets.
- Germany office location: Seevetal (near Hamburg)
- Year founded: 2021
- Notable SaaS clients: Monday.com (project management software), TimeChimp (time tracking tool), BanQu (traceability software)
- Pricing overview: Grow-SaaS.com offers tiered performance marketing plans starting at €1,299/month, scaling up to €2,499/month for advanced campaign management. Content marketing starts at €1,250/month, with SEO from €999 and social media from €1,299. They also provide one-time GTM strategies for €4,995 and CRO audits for €3,995.
- Website
6. YOYABA
YOYABA GmbH is a revenue marketing agency based in Hamburg, focused on fast-paced B2B software and SaaS companies. Known for delivering full-funnel growth, the team covers everything from paid social (especially LinkedIn) and paid search to content, SEO, and marketing ops, often integrating marketing automation — all geared toward driving pipeline and overall business growth. Rather than operating like a traditional agency, YOYABA often integrates directly with in-house teams. As one client put it, they’re “not a classic agency, but an indispensable partner.” Their portfolio includes an impressive mix of German SaaS companies and well-known international brands.
- Germany office location: Hamburg
- Year founded: 2009
- Notable SaaS clients: Humanoo (wellness platform), Storyblok (headless CMS), Xentral (ERP SaaS)
- Pricing overview: YOYABA offers paid advertising management (starting €5k/mo + % ad spend) and SEO/content marketing (starting €7.5k/mo) for B2B SaaS. A comprehensive package combining both with revenue operations support starts at €22.5k/mo (+ % ad spend).
- Website
7. Arvana GmbH
Arvana is a Berlin-based performance marketing agency specializing in B2B lead generation and outbound marketing for tech and software companies. They have quickly become a top marketing agency in Berlin for SaaS firms aiming to fill their pipeline with qualified leads. Their approach combines AI-assisted outbound campaigns (think LinkedIn and email sequences) with paid search/social ads to shorten sales cycles. Arvana positions itself as a holistic growth partner, from strategy to execution, emphasizing measurable results (they often highlight “more demo calls and lower CAC”). Case studies mention success with both startups and large enterprises.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2020
- Notable SaaS clients: ProAlpha (enterprise ERP software), SmapOne (no-code app builder), Trovarit (B2B software marketplace)
- Pricing overview: Arvana’s website doesn’t list fixed prices; however, directory info shows a minimum project size of around €3,000+.
- Website
Pro tip! Looking for rapid PPC results while building long-term SEO foundations? Mix agile PPC sprints with evergreen content for compounding impact.
8. Phiture
Phiture is a highly regarded mobile digital growth consulting agency. Their core services include App Store Optimization (ASO), Performance Marketing (Apple Search Ads, Google App Campaigns, Paid Social on platforms like Facebook, Snapchat, TikTok), Retention / CRM strategies, Subscription Revenue Optimization, Creative Services, and Growth Consulting. Phiture’s specialization makes them highly relevant for mobile-first SaaS companies or SaaS businesses with a significant mobile app component.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2016
- Notable SaaS clients: Headspace (meditation app), Skyscanner (travel search engine), NordVPN (privacy tool)
- Pricing overview: Phiture operates at a higher price point, reflecting its specialized expertise and work with large-scale apps. Clutch data indicates a minimum project size of $25,000+ and average hourly rates of $200-$300.
- Website
9. Claneo
Claneo is a Berlin-based, award-winning digital agency recognized for its deep expertise in international SEO and content marketing. The team delivers a holistic approach to search experience optimization, spanning technical SEO, multilingual content creation (in over 10 languages), off-page SEO through link building, and digital PR. What sets Claneo apart is their strong enterprise acumen — many team members bring client-side experience to the table. They’re also at the forefront of applying innovative solutions, leveraging AI in content workflows and expanding their SEO vision beyond Google, with a focus on content engineering elements like site speed, accessibility, and UX.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2017
- Notable SaaS clients: AnyDesk (remote desktop SaaS), Doctolib (appointment scheduling SaaS)
- Pricing overview: Claneo states they offer “no standard packages,” preferring customized strategies. Clutch data suggests a minimum project size of $5,000+ and average hourly rates between $100-$149.
- Website
10. Serpcore
Serpcore, representative of SEO agencies in Germany operating outside the main capital hub, is a lean, data-driven SEO consultancy specializing in helping startups grow their organic visibility on tight budgets. With expertise spanning local and global SEO, content strategy, and technical site optimization, they focus on delivering tangible results through strategic execution. Their tagline, “Impact with SaaS SEO,” reflects their clear focus: supporting early-stage SaaS teams with tailored, outcome-focused SEO. Serpcore offers flexible working models, whether you need a hands-on SEO partner or a mentor to guide your in-house team. For startups weighing AI vs marketing agencies, Serpcore shows that partnering with the best SEO agencies involves experts who can amplify your efforts far beyond what tools alone can do.
- Germany office locations: Wolfsburg (HQ) and Berlin
- Year founded: 2018
- Notable SaaS clients: GoodHealthRecipe (wellness platform), Mind Foundation (a non-profit in health tech)
- Pricing overview: According to Clutch data, Serpcore offers services starting with a minimum project size of $1,000+ and average hourly rates in the $50-$99 range.
- Website
11. Peak Ace
Considered among the top marketing agencies in Berlin due to its scale and track record, Peak Ace AG is a large, established international agency founded in 2007.. Their headquarters are in Berlin, with additional offices in Paris and Nantes. They are known for managing huge multilingual campaigns (25+ languages) and leveraging data and AI at scale. While not solely SaaS-focused, their extensive experience in driving performance for complex digital businesses using a data-centric, full-funnel approach is highly relevant to SaaS growth challenges.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2007
- Notable SaaS clients: Softgarden (recruiting SaaS platform), Zava (an online doctor service)
- Pricing overview: Clutch data indicates a minimum project size of $5,000+ and average hourly rates between $100-$149. Pricing is likely customized based on the extensive range of services and client requirements.
- Website
12. OGNO
OGNO is a Berlin-based full-service digital marketing studio that works as an extension of in-house teams for many startups and SMEs. With a team of around 10–15 people, they offer a broad range of services including branding, web design, website development, SEO, paid media, social media, and blockchain marketing. Their strength lies in flexibility. OGNO can step in for a one-time project or take on a longer-term role as a digital strategy partner, depending on what’s needed. This ability to adjust to different levels of involvement makes them a practical option for businesses that need full-service support without committing to a full-time team.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2017
- Notable SaaS clients: Data Virtuality (data integration platform), Kindlyn (payment tech)
- Pricing overview: OGNO offers customized pricing based on the scope and complexity of each project. For a detailed quote, direct consultation is recommended.
- Website
13. Buzzmatic
Buzzmatic is a long-standing SEO agency in Berlin that’s been operating for over a decade, excelling in technical SEO for large websites. They also integrate accessibility and UX into their SEO strategies (ensuring sites rank, convert, and comply). Overall, they are an established agency with significant experience and strong technical SEO capabilities, suitable for SaaS companies needing robust organic search strategies.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2011
- Notable SaaS clients: Duden Learnattack (e-learning platform), Orderbird (POS SaaS)
- Pricing overview: Clutch data suggests a minimum project size of $5,000+ and average hourly rates of $150-$199.
- Website
14. path digital
path digital is a niche B2B SaaS web design agency and marketing partner focused on transforming underperforming SaaS websites into high-converting digital assets. Their small, specialized team builds sales-optimized websites tailored to SaaS businesses, covering everything from brand messaging and UX/UI to Webflow development and performance marketing. Their SaaS-specific positioning sets them apart — they refer to themselves as “the B2B SaaS website specialists,” with a portfolio that reflects deep expertise in the space. They also offer short-term PPC sprints, a targeted service characteristic of agile PPC marketing agencies in Berlin, designed to increase free trial signups, a tactic that’s received positive feedback from clients.
- Germany office location: Bad Kreuznach
- Year founded: 2020
- Notable SaaS clients: MAIA (AI knowledge management SaaS), CapitalFlow (financial advisors SaaS), Taxfix (consumer tax filing SaaS)
- Pricing overview: Path Digital does not list specific pricing details on their website. However, according to its Clutch profile, project budgets typically range from $10,000 to $49,999, with a minimum engagement starting at $5,000. They often start with a strategy workshop to work on the positioning, then execute the Webflow site build, and optionally a 1-2 month PPC campaign.
- Website
Need a SaaS-savvy content and SEO partner? We’re just a call away.
Schedule a Call15. Mediacharge
Mediacharge is an owner-operated performance marketing agency known for its analytical approach to PPC and online advertising. Mediacharge is particularly adept at scaling paid campaigns in international markets — they have experience managing large Google Ads and social ads budgets across different countries. They also tout partnerships with “multiple unicorns” and even stock-listed companies.
- Germany office location: Munich
- Year founded: 2016
- Notable SaaS clients: PTC (PLM software), Safeguard Global (HR tech)
- Pricing overview: Mediacharge offers flexible pricing tailored to various client needs. Initial projects typically start between $1,000 and $10,000, with an average hourly rate of approximately $99. Many clients opt for ongoing ad management services, often under a $10,000 monthly retainer.
- Website
16. Laika Communications
While primarily a PR firm, Laika Communications often collaborates with or incorporates elements of a branding agency approach to help technology companies craft compelling narratives. With a lean team of seasoned PR professionals, Laika helps startups and scale-ups craft compelling narratives, shaping brands and earning meaningful media visibility. What sets Laika apart is its integrated approach — combining traditional PR tactics like media outreach and thought leadership with modern strategies such as content marketing and influencer collaborations. For SaaS startups in particular, credibility is everything. Laika supports founders in building that trust by securing coverage in top-tier publications, landing speaking opportunities, and positioning them at the center of industry conversations.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2018
- Notable SaaS clients: orderbird (hospitality SaaS), also supported blockchain and fintech SaaS clients with market entry PR in Germany.
- Pricing overview: As per Clutch data, many clients work on monthly retainers, likely around €3,000–€8,000, depending on scope (media relations, content, events, etc.). Project work (e.g., a product launch PR campaign) might be €5K for a 2-month push.
- Website
17. Moonbase
Moonbase is a Berlin-based social media marketing agency known for helping category-defining brands, especially in tech and SaaS, stand out across platforms like Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. As a Facebook Premium Partner, they bring both credibility and performance to the table. What sets Moonbase apart is their creative-first, storytelling-led approach to social media. With a strong focus on both organic community building and paid social, they’ve consistently delivered high-engagement social media campaigns and viral results. In addition to client execution, Moonbase also supports startups in building internal social media capabilities — an especially valuable edge for fast-growing teams aiming to scale their brand from the inside out.
- Germany office location: Berlin
- Year founded: 2017
- Notable SaaS clients: getquin (portfolio tracking software), Taxfix (consumer tax filing SaaS)
- Pricing overview: Moonbase offers a hybrid pricing model that allocates margin to where most value is created, ensuring budgets work effectively. Their minimum project budget is listed as $50,000+ on Clutch.
- Website
Good to know! SaaStorm’s Discovery Sprint gives you a full growth blueprint — content plan, SEO audit, and competitor analysis — in just 10 days for €3,000.
Choosing your marketing partner: Key considerations for German SaaS startups
Now that you have a robust list of top digital marketing agencies in Germany, finding the perfect fit requires careful consideration of several factors specific to the SaaS model and your marketing objectives.
#1 Service alignment with your goals
Why it matters:
Your SaaS might need strong SEO content, quick PPC leads, or technical SEO fixes. While many agencies offer diverse services, they usually excel in specific areas (e.g., SaaStorm with its SEO-driven content, is among the best content marketing agencies for SaaS, Cheetah Conversions with PPC, or Flow Agency with technical SEO). Even ‘full-service’ agencies have core strengths. Prioritize partnering with an agency whose specialty directly addresses your most critical growth objective.
How to vet:
- Listen closely to how they describe their core strengths and positioning during initial conversations.
- Review their case studies and client portfolio specifically for examples related to the services you need most.
#2 SaaS client work experience
Why it matters:
SaaS marketing is distinct, with unique metrics (MRR, LTV, CAC, churn) and funnels focusing on trials, demos, and retention. An agency experienced in SaaS already understands this landscape. They know effective tactics for converting trials, driving qualified demos, reducing churn, and ultimately creating loyal customers — strategies vital for recurring revenue growth. Agencies like SaaStorm, for example, demonstrate proven success in generating significant traffic and leads for B2B SaaS companies.
How to vet:
- Request case studies of SaaS clients, focusing on the specific results achieved (e.g., MQL increase, trial-to-paid conversion rate improvement, CAC reduction).
- Look for testimonials or reviews specifically from other SaaS founders or marketers.
- Discuss their familiarity with core SaaS metrics and ask how they’ve impacted these for past clients.
Good to know! SaaStorm helped emlen rebuild its Webflow site from a basic landing page to a structured, conversion-ready asset — fully optimized for both users and Google.
#3 Communication & collaboration style
Why it matters:
For a successful partnership, find an agency whose communication methods fit how your team works best. Effective agencies collaborate well remotely (SaaStorm is a prime example). For important milestones or strategy sessions, assess their flexibility for in-person meetings: some agencies have German offices, while others (including remote teams) may be willing to travel to meet you in Germany when necessary.
How to vet:
- Inquire about communication cadence, reporting methods, and primary tools.
- Clarify their collaboration/feedback process and willingness/approach to occasional in-person meetings in Germany.
- Observe their responsiveness and clarity during initial discussions.
#4 Adaptive and innovative approach
Why it matters:
The digital marketing landscape for SaaS is constantly shifting – algorithms change, new technologies like AI emerge, and user behavior evolves (including how people discover information). Partnering with an agency that is adaptive and embraces innovation is therefore crucial. You need a team willing to test new channels, tools, and strategies, rather than one stuck in rigid, outdated methods. An agency like SaaStorm, for example, demonstrates this adaptive mindset by focusing on modern techniques like Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) and adapting to new ways users find information.
How to vet:
- Ask how they stay updated on industry trends, algorithm changes, and new technologies like AI.
- Inquire about recent innovative strategies or tools they’ve successfully implemented for SaaS clients.
- Look for evidence of a testing and experimentation culture within their approach or case studies.
Wrapping up: Scaling your German SaaS with the right marketing agency
The German SaaS landscape presents a vibrant opportunity, fueled by innovation and significant market growth.
For startups aiming to capture their share of this potential, partnering with the right marketing agency is not just helpful, but often essential for achieving scalable, sustainable growth.
This list provides a robust starting point, showcasing 15+ agencies with diverse specializations, from SEO and content masters to paid acquisition experts, mobile growth gurus, website specialists, and tech communicators. Each offers unique strengths tailored to different SaaS needs and growth stages.
For B2B SaaS startups prioritizing tangible revenue growth driven by expert SEO and content marketing strategies, SaaStorm presents a compelling option.
Choose wisely, and your chosen partner will not only attract more traffic or leads — they’ll help accelerate your journey to becoming the next SaaS success story.
Did you know? Many top agencies like Flow, YOYABA, and SaaStorm blend remote collaboration with in-person flexibility for Berlin-based teams.
FAQs
A great content-led growth partner for SaaS understands that website content isn’t just copy — it’s a strategic asset that drives discovery, education, and conversions. The right partner will deeply understand your ICP’s pain points and craft SEO-informed, solution-oriented pages that speak directly to each stage of the buyer journey. Think homepage messaging that builds relevance, product pages that convert, and bottom-funnel resources like use cases or customer stories. At SaaStorm, we specialize in exactly this — writing high-performance content that doesn’t just rank, but resonates and drives qualified pipeline. It’s not about random content creation; it’s about content that’s engineered for growth.
SEO for SaaS takes time, but it builds serious momentum. You might see early wins, like fixing technical issues or optimizing pages, within the first 2–3 months. More meaningful traction, especially on competitive keywords, often shows up around the 6–12 month mark. It’s not instant, but with the right content strategy and consistency, SEO compounds into a scalable, cost-efficient growth engine. At SaaStorm, we believe in playing the long game — because that’s where SEO really wins.
For early-stage SaaS, building an in-house team is expensive and slow — you’re hiring for SEO, content, design, strategy, and more. Agencies give you instant access to all of that, plus tested systems that work. In-house makes sense later, but early on, speed and flexibility matter most. And when it comes to complex channels like SEO, the case for outsourcing is especially strong. Here’s a deeper breakdown of in-house vs. agency SEO if you’re weighing the trade-offs.
Ideally, find both, but prioritize based on your immediate goals. If your primary target is the DACH region (Germany, Austria, Switzerland), deep local market understanding (language nuances, cultural context, local channels) is crucial for effective localization and resonance. If aiming for a global scale or targeting primarily English-speaking markets first, broader international SaaS expertise might be sufficient, though DACH knowledge remains valuable for future expansion. Evaluate an agency’s track record in the specific markets you need to win.